Harford County Development Advisory Committee met November 21.

By Kristine Gonzales-Abella

Dec 2, 2018

Harford County Development Advisory Committee met Nov. 21.

Here is the minutes provided by the committee:

The following members were in attendance:

Moe Davenport Chairman, DAC

Robin Wales Department of Emergency Services

Len Walinski Health Department

Lisa Kalama Health Department

Daryl Ivins DPW – Water & Sewer

Mike Rist DPW Engineering

Senior Deputy Marco Barresi Sheriff’s Office

Rich Zeller State Highway Administration

Jenni Daniels Planner, Development Review

Jen Wilson Planner, Development Review

Also in attendance:

Ronald Hogan, Alan Cohen

Anthony Tabasco, Ann Carlton

Max Carozza, Mike Barry

Michael Early, Peggy Early

Bill Burke, Dorothy Burke

Ryan LaTosh, Joel Runiolo

Dan Wise, Paul Thompson

David Taylor, Chapin Dupree

Jake Aola, Jay Rissling

Mark Riesner, Jimmy Dinoon

Paul Muddiman, Carol Wagner

Khrystyna Bednarek, Warren Rochester

Hazel Harris, Jeff Matthai

Fran Wergin, Thomas Skiles

David Underwood, Mikki Underwood

Marcie Meichle, Geoff Latosh

Moe Davenport, of the Department of Planning and Zoning, welcomed everyone to the meeting. He explained there is one plan on the agenda. Mr. Davenport explained that a brief presentation will be given by the consultant for the project. The DAC members will give their comments on the project. The meeting will then be opened up for anyone in attendance that may have questions or comments. If anyone has questions that are not answered, there are information request forms that can be filled out and submitted to the Department of Planning and Zoning and they will be responded to in writing. There is an attendance sheet circulating for everyone to sign. If a correct address is given, a copy of the

minutes will be mailed or e-mailed. The minutes are recorded and will also be published to the Department of Planning and Zoning’s website.

KINGDON HALL OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES

Located south of Churchville Road (Route 22); west side of Schuck’s Road. Tax Map 42; Parcel 231; Third Election District. Council District E. Planner Jenni.

Plan No. S431-2018 Construct 3,312 sf Church Bldg/8.230 acres/AG.

Received 10-17-2018 Bel Air Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses Inc./FWA.

Verbatim Transcript

Dan Watt with Fred Ward Associates presented the plan:

This is a coloring rendering of approximately an 8 acre parcel of ground off of Schucks Road. My name is Dan Watt with Frederick Ward Associates here representing Jehovah’s Witness congregational support and the Jehovah’s Witness organization for the house of worship at this site. The project is in the Agricultural zone. It is 8 acres. It is largely meadow which is across from right now if you are familiar the McDonald’s sits here next to it and there is a County park property right across the street. So, only a small portion of the property will be utilized for development on the north side of the property. It just involves approximately 3312 sf house of worship facility. A parking lot will support that use as well as storm water and other related infrastructure including on lot septic system. That is essentially the project.

Robin Wales – Department of Emergency Services

The proposed building must display 8” –10” address numbers and letters. The addresses must be clearly visible from Schucks Rd.

Emergency Services must have a list of at least 3 (three) emergency contacts for notification, response, and securing purposes if the facilities are not in operation 24 hours a day.

Lisa Kalama – Health Department

The site plan as submitted by the consultant on October 26, 2018, contained incomplete information to allow for the comprehensive review of this proposal. In order for the HCHD to continue its review, the information below must be submitted:

1. Based on the information provided for parking requirements, it appears the seating capacity for the church will be 170; is this number accurate? Regardless of the capacity, please indicate in writing the maximum capacity of the church for sizing of the OSDS.

2. Provide a detailed written description of all events and activities that will take place within the building. Describe the number and types of rooms within the building. Will any type of day care be provided on site? Does the building contain a kitchen, and if so, please describe its use. Indicate the number of events per week/year, types of events, and approximate number of patrons for each event. Such events include, but are not limited to, worship services, religion classes, meetings, building use by outside groups, catering operations, etc. This information is also needed to determine the sizing of the OSDS.

3. Identify and locate all existing wells and septic reserve area (SRA) within 200 feet of this property, including those that may exist across Schucks Road. If there are no features on the adjacent property, provide a note on the appropriate adjacent property or written statement on the site plan indicating the absence of such features.

4. Approval for the location of the proposed well will be determined once the revised plan showing all necessary structures is submitted. Prior to the issuance of a Building Permit, a new water supply well will need to be permitted and constructed, and the Well Completion Report reviewed and approved. Prior to the issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy (COO), the church must be connected to the newly installed water supply well and issued a Certificate of Potability (COP).

5. Based on the proposed use of this building, the water supply may be designated as a public water system. As such, periodic inspections of the water supply system will be conducted by the Health Department, and the owner will be responsible for the collection of water tests for drinking water. All required water samples must be collected by a Maryland Certified Water Sampler and analyzed at a Maryland Certified Laboratory, and results must be submitted to the Health Department for review.

6. Currently, the site plan shows one hundred (100) linear feet of trench for the initial system. Please indicate how the sizing of the OSDS was determined. The percolation tests conducted in 2005 show a significant difference in the results for each of the three identified perc holes. Additional percolation tests may need to be conducted depending on how sizing of the OSDS is determined. The soils on this parcel are designated wet weather soils, and if tests are necessary, any required percolation tests will need to be conducted during the wet weather season, typically between February and April, as determined by the HCHD.

7. A properly sized 10,000 square foot septic area, or an area which is large enough to accommodate the initial system and two repairs, whichever is greater, must be shown on the site plan. The length and depth of trench will be determined upon receipt of the appropriate information requested above. Pretreatment will likely be required for this system unless you are able to demonstrate the strength of the waste water is equal to or less than the strength of typical domestic sewage. The septic system must be designed in accordance with the Code of Maryland Regulations (COMAR) 26.04.02.05 and Harford County Code Charter 216, whichever is more stringent.

8. The site plan shows one Stormwater ESD Facility located directly next to the delineated septic reserve area (SRA). The Maryland Stormwater Design Manual Chapter 5 requires a minimum twenty-five (25) foot separation. The revised site plan will need to be updated to show compliance with this regulation.

9. In the “Site Development Data” section of the submitted plan, Item #3 has an incomplete Tax ID number. The correct number is 03-06570. In addition, Item #5 indicates the site is serviced by public water and sewer which is incorrect. These changes must be made on the site plan.

Upon receipt of the above information, this office will update our comments.

Mike Rist – DPW Engineering

A sediment control plan and a grading permit will be required for the development of this site. Sediment controls are to be designed to the specifications as set forth in the Maryland Standards for Erosion and Sediment Control, latest edition.

Stormwater Management must be provided in accordance with the 2000 Design Manual as amended by Supplement 1.

A stormwater management concept plan has been approved. Comments must be addressed on subsequent stormwater plan submittals.

The final stormwater management plan shall be approved prior to the issuance of the grading permit. A stormwater permit is required prior to the issuance of a building permit.

Maintenance of the stormwater facility (facilities) is (are) the responsibility of the lot owner(s).

Road plans will need to be approved and a Public Works Agreement will need to be executed prior to the issuance of building permits for the site.

The curb and gutter shall be extended from the existing Parcel 29 to the southerly curb radii. The stormdrain shall be extended and road widened to 18’ from the centerline.

The entrance shall have adequate sight distance for a 35 mph design speed.

The entrance width shall be 25’ with 35’ minimum curb radii.

Roadside drainage shall be addressed along the remaining Schucks Road frontage by providing a 3’ graded shoulder and side ditch or other measures to be determined during final design.

All pavement striping and traffic control signs shall conform to the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices and State Highway Administration Supplement.

A 30’ right-of-way dedication is required along Schucks Road if the plat is to be recorded.

Senior Deputy Barresi - Sheriff’s Office

No comment.

Rich Zeller – State Highway Administration

The MDOT SHA has no objection to Site Plan approval as proposed access to this site will be from a county road.

Jenni Daniels – Planner

1. The plan is subject to the Harford County Forest Conservation Regulations. A Forest Stand Delineation (FSD342-2018) has been submitted and approved by the Department of Planning and Zoning. A Forest Conservation Plan (FCP432-2018) has been submitted for review.

2. A Landscape Plan (L433-2018) and a photometric plan have been submitted for review.

3. All proposed signage shall conform to the Sign Code and permits shall be obtained from the Department of Planning and Zoning.

4. The property is within two Non-Transient, Non-Community Water Source Protection Districts (John Archer School/Oak Grove Baptist Church and School). Boundaries of the Water Source Protection District shall be identified on the plans. All Chapter 267- 66 requirements of the Harford County Zoning Code shall apply.

Public Comments –

There were no public comments.

2210 OLD EMMORTON ROAD

Located between Old Emmorton Road & Emmorton Road (Route 924): west of Laurel Bush Road. Tax Maps 56; Parcel 236. First Election District. Council District C. Planner Jenni.

Plan No. S463-2018 Construct 3 story 8,750 sf Medical/Dental Office Bldg/0.454 Acres/B2.

Received 10-24-2018 Estelle S. Bolton, Trustee/2210 Old Emmorton Rd, LLC/David G. Taylor & Associates, LLC.

Verbatim Transcript

David Taylor with David G. Taylor & Associates, LLC presented the plan:

Good morning, my name is Dave Taylor I’m with David G. Taylor & Associates and I’m here to present a plan for 2210 Emmorton Road. The applicant being 2210 Old Emmorton Road LLC. This property is just a little bit less than 1⁄2 acre. It is zoned B2. We are proposing a medical office building with a foot print of 5,700 sf with a total gross floor area of 8,750 and underneath this there is actually a parking lot is situated so, it is sort of like a ground floor parking garage, 2nd floor medical office of 5,700 and a third floor would be about half of that footprint is going to be an outdoor patio at this point in time. I just wanted to also mention that we are considering making the 3rd floor general office. With another series as an option which would still meet the traffic exemption and it would be less than 249 trips per day. This plan presents medical office 8,750. We have storm water along Emmorton Road/924 for the most part all of this drains to that facility and we are proposing an off-site drainage pipe; the site is a little bit odd and there is no way to get the water out to storm drains. We have talked to this property owner and we do have tentative approval to bring an outlet pipe down and discharge into this ditch with an easement. We are proposing some improvements along Old Emmorton Road; we have sidewalk to mimic what was done next door, and we are going to abandon this existing water house connection off of Emmorton Road. With that, I open it up to you for comments or questions.

Robin Wales – Department of Emergency Services

The building is addressed #2210 Old Emmorton Rd. The 2nd and 3rd floor office spaces will be identified as Suites 201, 202, etc. on 2nd floor and Suites 301, 302 etc. on the 3rd floor.

“Public safety wireless radio communications inside a building is essential to the safety of those occupying the structure as well as fire, law enforcement and emergency medical providers responding to a call for help. Buildings that are greater than 5,000 square feet, higher than 50 feet, contain underground storage or parking and are constructed of materials that impede wireless radio signals that may adversely affect the response of public safety providers. Please consider including wiring, electrical connections and other infrastructure that may be needed for an in-building 800 MHz amplifier. Department of Emergency Services will test coverage in your facility once construction is finished. Call 410- 638-4900 for this assistance.”

Building must display “10 – 12” address numbers and letters. The address must be clearly visible from Old Emmorton Rd.

Emergency Services must have a list of 3 (three) emergency contacts for notification, response, and securing purposes.

Len Walinski – Health Department

This office has the following comments regarding this project:

1. Any buildings listed to be razed will require a demolition permit that is secured through the Department of Planning and Zoning. All aspects of the demolition work must be reviewed, approved, and completed to the satisfaction of the Health Department. This includes, but is not limited to, the abandonment of any wells and septic systems, the management of asbestos, hazardous materials, and solid wastes, and the removal of underground storage tanks. All documentation concerning the demolition work must be forwarded to this office. If the owner/developer has any questions concerning the demolition work, they may contact Samantha Peternel at the HCHD at 410-877-2328.

2. Dental/medical offices require certain permits and registrations from the Maryland Department of the Environment (MDE).

 The Maryland Department of the Environment (MDE) requires a facility that generates special medical waste to obtain a generator identification number and contract with a special medical waste hauler licensed/certified through the State of Maryland. The applicant/owner should contact MDE at 410-537-3400 for further information.

 Facilities that conduct X-rays are required by MDE Air and Radiation Management Administration to be registered. If applicable, the applicant/owner should contact the Radiological Health Program at 410- 537-3193.

The owner/developer is reminded that during the development of this project when soil moisture conditions are low, measures must be implemented to prevent the generation of dust until a permanent vegetative cover is established and all paving is completed.

It is the responsibility of the owner/operator to be aware of any regulatory requirements for the proposed use and for obtaining appropriate permits.

Daryl Ivins – DPW Water & Sewer

The following comments shall be included as conditions of Site Plan approval for the above- described project:

A new public fire hydrant must be installed behind the sidewalk at the northern corner of the site. The center of the hydrant shall be located three feet behind the sidewalk.

There is an existing water service to the property. It must be abandoned at the main in accordance with standard Harford County requirements as part of the utility work for this project. The locations of the service and a description of the work shall be shown on the utility plan submitted with the Commercial Service application.

The meter setting and backflow preventer will be required to be placed within the building.

Any sewer cleanouts that are located within the paved area shall be installed using the County cleanout in paving detail S-28. The detail shall be shown on the utility plan and referenced on the plan and/or profile drawing.

The construction contract numbers for the existing utilities shall be shown on the drawing submitted with the Commercial Application.

A Commercial Service Application must be completed by the owner and approved by Harford County before a building permit will be issued for this project. Contact the Division of Water and Sewer Administration and Permitting Section at 410-638-3300 for additional information.

The Commercial Service Application Number 20010 must be added to the title block of the site plan submitted with the Application for approval.

Mike Rist – DPW Engineering

Stormwater Management must be provided in accordance with the 2000 Design Manual as amended by Supplement 1.

A stormwater management concept plan has been approved. Comments must be addressed on subsequent stormwater plan submittals.

A final stormwater management plan shall be approved prior to the issuance of a grading permit. A stormwater management permit is required prior to the issuance of a building permit.

Prior to final plan approval an agreement shall be executed with the adjacent property owner of parcel 236 to allow for the construction and maintenance of the stormwater management facility drain pipe.

Maintenance of the stormwater management facility (facilities) is (are) the responsibility of the lot owner(s).

Road improvements are required along Old Emmorton Road. Construction shall include on half of a 30’ wide closed section roadway with sidewalks. The sidewalk shall be extended to the existing sidewalk @2206 Old Emmorton Road. The one-way entrances shall be 15’ wide with 15’ curb radii and signed accordingly.

Road plans will need to be approved and a Public Works Agreement will need to be executed prior to the issuance of building permits for the site.

All pavement striping and traffic control signs shall conform to the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices and State Highway Administration Supplement.

A 30’ right-of-way dedication is required along Old Emmorton Road.

A utility permit will be required for the construction of the water and sewer connection with the County right-of-way.

Senior Deputy Barresi - Sheriff’s Office

No comment.

Rich Zeller – State Highway Administration

The MDOT SHA has no objection to Site Plan approval as proposed access to this site will be from a county road.

The proposed grading taking place within the MDOT SHA right-of-way along MD 924 will be subject to the terms of a District Office (DO) permit that may be obtained by contacting Mr. Michael Pasquariello, Utility Engineer at 410-229-2341. A copy of the plan is being forwarded to his office.

Jenni Daniels – Planner

1. If the exterior stairwell is to be enclosed, it must be removed from the 25’ front yard setback.

2. A new series of the Landscape Plan shall be submitted to incorporate the required parking lot perimeter landscaping along the northern boundary. Also, the proposed 34 spaces require 3 parking lot shade trees. Only one appears to be provided. The new series shall include a breakdown of the cost estimate that provides for materials and installation. Additionally, the location and any enclosure or screenings of a dumpster area shall be provided.

3. A photometric plan for the covered parking garage shall be submitted to the Department of Planning and Zoning in an architectural lighting plan.

4. All proposed signage shall conform to the Sign Code. Permits shall be obtained from the Department of Planning and Zoning.

Daryl Ivins – David, based upon Jenni’s comment regarding the trees in the parking area just be cognizant to not put the trees very close to the sewer clean out at the one corner of the property.

Public Comments –

There were no public comments.

BEL AIR OVERLOOK (formerly BEL AIR AUTO AUCTION) – CONCEPT PLAN

Located on the west side of Bel Air Road (Route 1); south of Tollgate Road.Tax Map 48; Parcels 253, 256, 116; Tax Map 49; Parcels 249, 27, 30, 31, 219, 658 & 29. Third Election District. Council District C. Planner Jen.

Plan No. C466-2018 Housing for the Elderly (38.75 acres), Commercial Lot (1.92

Acres), Retail Lot (3.59 acres), Future Lot (.97 acres) 45.2 acres/

B3/R1.

Received 10-24-2018 G & N Properties LLC/ G & N LLC/Nichols Bel Air Properties LLC./Cohen Siegel Investors/Morris & Ritchie Associates Inc.

Verbatim Transcript

Paul Muddiman with Morris & Ritchie Associates Inc. presented the plan:

Good morning. My name is Paul Muddiman with Morris & Ritchie Associates. Also, with me is Alan Cohen of Cohen Siegel Investors, they are builders and developers of residential & commercial communities. We are here to present the Concept Plan for Bel Air Overlook. The site is located at 803 Bel Air Road, the property formerly used as the Bel Air Auto Auction. The site currently includes four buildings and two smaller structures. Much of the site is vacant. The property is 45 acres zoned B3; business and R1 residential. The Community Input Meeting was held on 10/2/18 at the Abingdon Library. An FSD and Concept Plan were submitted on 10/24/18. A traffic scoping meeting was held and a traffic study is underway and will be submitted with the Preliminary and Site Plans. The plan before you includes four lots. Lot 1 and 2 are planned as 5 1⁄2 acres of commercial and retail along US 1. Lot 3 is set aside for future use. Lot 4 includes 38.75 acres for housing for the elderly and that is the majority of this site in this area. The permitted density on lot 4 is 452 units and the plan proposes 250 units. The units with be townhomes and mid-rise apartments and must be occupied by at least one resident who is 55 or older. Lot 4 will be designed in accordance with Section 267-82 of the Harford County zoning code of housing for the elderly. A Club House and Park is planned in the center of the property as well as a walking path and trail system that will meander thru the property connecting all of the points of the property. The community will be served by public water and sewer and there are two access points provided onto Bel Air Road. A full movement intersection at this location and then a right in, right out, further to the west. Roads on the property will be private and further details of the project will be provided at the Preliminary and Site Plan stage. Thank you.

Robin Wales – Department of Emergency Services

The roads must be named & checked with DES so duplication and sounds a like does not take place. I will comment further on the preliminary & site plans.

Len Walinski – Health Department

This plan proposes housing for the elderly, commercial lot, retail lot, and future lot. The site will be serviced by public water and sewer.

This office has the following comments regarding this project:

Any buildings listed to be razed will require a demolition permit that is secured through the Department of Planning and Zoning. All aspects of the demolition work must be reviewed, approved, and completed to the satisfaction of the Health Department. This includes, but is not limited to, the abandonment of any wells and septic systems, the management of asbestos, hazardous materials, and solid wastes, and the removal of underground storage tanks. All documentation concerning the demolition work must be forwarded to this office. If the owner/developer has any questions concerning the demolition work, they may contact Samantha Peternel at the HCHD at 410-877-2328.

Additional comments will be forthcoming upon review of the preliminary plan. It is the responsibility of the owner/operator to be aware of any regulatory requirements for the proposed use and for obtaining appropriate permits.

The final plat must bear the standard owner’s statement and the master plan conformance statement.

Daryl Ivins – DPW Water & Sewer

The Division of Water and Sewer cannot recommend approval of the Concept Plan until the method of providing water service to the project been determined. The comments will be revised after a decision has been made concerning this issue.

Water service for the parcels that make up the proposed development is currently split between the Harford County water system and the Maryland American water system. As a result, water service limits need to be adjusted for the proposed configuration so that both Harford County and Maryland American continue to effectively serve the property. The adjustments to the water service area will be shown in the Spring 2019 Update to the Water and Sewer Master Plan.

Although a portion of this proposed development will be within the Maryland American Water Service Area, it is subject to the Adequate Public Facilities requirements for fire flow. The required fire flow for this project is 1500 gallons per minute for two hours during maximum day demand. The developer must verify that this condition can be met by having the necessary tests and calculations performed to the satisfaction of the County. The developer’s engineer shall coordinate the necessary work with the Division of Water and Sewer. This work must be performed before the Division of Water and Sewer can recommend approval of the Preliminary Plan.

Fire hydrants shall be located as required by the Harford County Division of Water and Sewer Design Guidelines. For commercial development, fire hydrants must be installed no more than every 300 feet along the public right of way. If the existing hydrant spacing along Route 1 is not sufficient, the developer must have new hydrants installed on the Maryland American water mains to meet this requirement.

There is approximately 1713 feet of gravity sewer downstream of the proposed development, as well as one sewage pumping station that may require replacement or parallel sewers to accommodate the future flows. A Preliminary Plan for development of this project may be approved after the adequacy of the sewer system has been determined and the required improvements are identified for construction by the Developer.

The contract numbers for the first contract in this project are 20008 for water and 20009 for sewer. The numbers shall be placed on the utility construction drawings before their initial submittal to the county for review.

Paul Muddiman – Do you have any further details on the APF issue now? Daryl Ivins – Regarding the sewer?

Paul Muddiman – The sewer. Yes.

Daryl Ivins – I can provide you with the footage and all that. Sure.

Paul Muddiman – So, is this something we will need to study further?

Daryl Ivins – We should meet and discuss this and identify where the areas are so that you can have a plan put together for the Preliminary Plan submittal. I know it is not required now but we did the investigation.

Paul Muddiman – No, we need to address that now.

Mike Rist – DPW Engineering

Stormwater Management must be provided in accordance with the 2000 Design Manual as amended by Supplement 1.

A stormwater management concept plan shall be submitted for review prior to or concurrent with the preliminary plan submission.

A permanent turn-around shall be constructed at the end of West MacPhail Road and Brakeford Road.

Pedestrian access shall be provided to the adjacent communities and along Rte.1

Senior Deputy Barresi - Sheriff’s Office

No comment.

Paul Magness – Harford County Parks & Recreation

This concept plan proposes a mixed-use development on four lots totaling 45.2 +/- acres. The plan proposes 250 +/- townhouse and mid-rise apartments for the elderly on Lot 4 (38.75 acresZZ) of the property. The total open space required for Lot 4 is 19.38 acres (50% of Lot 4), with.50 acres of active open space. The total open space proposed for the Lot is 19.38 acres, with.50 acres of active open space. The proposed active open space includes a club house and a 6’ wide walking path. The walking path should be asphalt or concrete.

Rich Zeller – State Highway Administration

An access permit will be required for entrance and road improvements to this site on US 1 BUS. Before making specific requirements for entrance design and road improvements, the MDOT SHA requests the opportunity to review a traffic impact study (TIS) to determine the extent of those requirements. We require four (4) copies of the TIS and a CD of the study for our review. That submittal can be made directly to Ms. Wendy Wolcott at the MDOT SHA District 4 Office, 320 West Warren Road, Hunt Valley, MD 21030 to the attention of Richard Zeller. Please utilize the above SHA Tracking number when making that submittal.

Jen Wilson – Planner

A Forest Stand Delineation has been submitted and is currently under review. The project is located within a Tier II watershed and should follow the attached Maryland Department of the Environment checklist. New impacts to the Natural Resource District shall be minimized. Natural Resource District may not be located on individual residential lots.

A Landscape and Lighting Plan will be required. The Plan must provide the required landscape bufferyards for the adjacent residential zoning, street trees, foundation plantings and parking lot plantings.

A Recreation Plan will be required to delineate the areas of active and passive open space. At least 50% of Lot 4 shall be designated as open space. The plan shall provide additional details of the proposed active open space amenities. A recreation trail shall be at least 6- feet in width and constructed with a durable hard-surface.

Pedestrian connections shall be provided from the proposed development to W. MacPhail Road and Barkeford Road. Sidewalks shall be provided along all road frontage.

A Traffic Impact Analysis will be required. The project must meet all applicable adequate Public Facility requirements.

Deeds of Covenants and Restrictions shall be recorded with the Final Plat to restrict the age of occupants within the Housing for the Elderly development.

The Department requires the consultant to provide additional details on the proposed use of Lot 3. Commercial uses may be limited due to the narrow width of Lot 3.

Moe Davenport – I’d like to clarify one thing. What we are viewing here today is a concept plan. Because, this is a special development it has to submit a Conceptual Plan first. A lot of our comments have said when the Preliminary Plans come in they will have different comments. They will also have to submit a Preliminary Plan for the specific design of each lot in the project and they will also come back to the Development Advisory Committee. You will again be notified and there will be posting on the property and we will come back here and review each Preliminary Plan. That goes for the commercial lots too. If they don’t get developed right away, ten years from now if they come in to develop the commercial lots they will need to come back to the Development Advisory Committee. The posting and advertisement will happen and we will be back here again. So, this again is a Conceptual Plan and we will be back again to review the detailed Preliminary Plan. With that, we will go ahead and get started. If anyone has any questions or comments please give your name for the record.

Public Comments –

Marci Meichle – Ponderosa Estates. My first question is I would like Paul to point out any changes to the plan for the community meeting.

Paul Muddiman – There aren’t any changes. But, as you can see this is a Concept Plan so the plan that I presented at the CIM had more detail on it as this plan does.

Marci Meichle – But, there have been no significant changes to you traffic patterns or anything from the community input meeting?

Paul Muddiman – No.

Marci Meichle – Ok, next on the list is Ponderosa Estates strongly requests that the walking path between MacPhail Road and the new development be removed and we would like clarification on the information that the county just commented on between MacPhail and Barke Ford being opened up?

Moe Davenport – Which comments? Our department comments?

Marci Meichle – Yes, I would like further information on how that is going to work because we were told at the community meeting that it would just be a walking path however, it was noted at that meeting that the hill at MacPhail is not really walking path worthy and how that would be accommodated.

Moe Davenport – We requested that they provide pedestrian access to those public roads. Not opened up as far as automobile distribution.

Marci Meichle – So, for Ponderosa Estates we strongly request that that road not be opened up in any way and that the two communities stay separate. I don’t live in the Barke Ford Road area so we will let their group speak for them.

Moe Davenport – Understood.

Marci Meichle – We would like additional information on the water & drainage studies independent from the developer including specific scientific data on the aquafer impacts due to a potential gas station being in the area and the existing impacts on the potential problems with Bel Air Acres existing well and septic on that side. We’d like to see that and see how that is going to play out based on the nature of what they want to put in so close to the water system. The further thing is the redesign of the traffic pattern for the entrance and exit easements up here. The right turn only would bring everybody right out to where it is already congested at the Tollgate Road and Belair Road intersection. We also noted that you just stated that they have to improvements to the water pumping station. Would the developer be paying for that?

Moe Davenport – Yes. You asked about water quality. Any plans that are submitted to us they will be required to do sediment erosion controls, drainage, they will all be available to you.

Dorothy Burke – I live on Locust Lane. At the original meeting there was mention of a four story senior apartment building to be going to the far right of that development and I don’t see you mention that at all. Is that off the table or you haven’t put it back on yet?

Paul Muddiman – That will be addressed again, this is a Concept Plan that shows the road network. Those details of the buildings, the height, the size of those building will be shown on the Preliminary and Site Plan that will be submitted in a few months.

Dorothy Burke – You didn’t mention that at all so that is not on that proposal now?

Paul Muddiman – It is part of the plan but that detail is not part of this presentation. We will address that at another meeting.

Dorothy Burke – So, we are going to have stories of more people adding to the use of the same facilities, water source, etc. Correct? Yes?

Paul Muddiman – Yes

Dorothy Burke – So, there are going to be more cars coming in and out of that exit and entrance near where the gas station is going to be.

Paul Muddiman – Yes, that will be on lot 4.

Warren Rochester – I’m the Barke Ford Road area. I have a house bordering the auction and I’m in agreement with the Ponderosa group where they expressed not to have a walking path. That was kind of explained at the last meeting so I just need to get a little more clarity. We were of the understanding that the road would not be opened or that any type of access would not be accommodated with this development. That is one thing. The other part that I wanted to bring up is that the property management. The auction had planted years ago several trees and the trees have now overgrown. What are the plans for maintaining the property? Is there any type of bond agreement for that going forward?

Moe Davenport – That is a good question. They are required to provide a buffer yard between B3 and R2 zoning district adjacent to your property and the Ponderosa Estates.

Have you looked into whether you will keep that buffer yard there or are you going to re-do a new buffer yard?

Paul Muddiman – We will most likely keep the existing trees that are there and add to it where we need to.

Warren Rochester – The reason I ask is I have approached them several times. There is a tree, actually there are a couple of trees that were in danger of falling and they have come back to me several times and said oh it’s not my property it’s on the other property so, nothing was done.

Moe Davenport – Paul, correct me if I’m wrong. They are going to evaluate the existing vegetation that is there and, then come up with a plan to either supplement or maintain to meet the minimum required buffer yard of 30 feet I believe. Is that correct?

Paul Muddiman – That is correct.

Moe Davenport – If you have a specific issue you can contact them.

Anthony Tabasco – I’m also on Barke Ford Road. I want to understand what you are proposing to do on Barke Ford Road. That was supposed to not be opened up. I want to understand why all of a sudden you are going to open that up? The neighborhood was expecting no egress points there. I want to understand what it is the county is wanting to do where the neighborhood does not want it to be done.

Moe Davenport – We have asked them to provide a walking trail. Anthony Tabasco – Well, we don’t want that. We don’t want that ok. Moe Davenport – I understand that.

Anthony Tabasco – We don’t want a walking trail at Barke Ford. Marcie Meichle – Or, West MacPhail Road.

Anthony Tabasco – I appreciate the county wanting that but, the neighborhood does not. Moe Davenport – I understand. Anthony I hear you.

Anthony Tabasco – Ok, good.

Moe Davenport – It is a public road.

Anthony Tabasco – It is a court. It is a court. It does not say a road. It says a court.

Moe Davenport – It is a public road right of way that abuts this property so, we have asked that they provide a walking trail. We will take your comments to the Director of Planning & Zoning. We represent them.

Anthony Tabasco – Excuse me. It was not presented at the Library that there was going to be any egress. Now, all of sudden it is coming back with an egress. Are these plans going to continually change here? I mean, it seems like it is a very fluid environment that is being presented to the people here. First, there was nothing there now, all of sudden today there is something there so everybody was stepping back thinking there wasn’t going to be anything on Barke Ford and now there is.

Moe Davenport – Right.

Anthony Tabasco – So, there is a lot of confusion being developed here.

Moe Davenport – Those are the county’s comments. They have submitted a plan. Anthony Tabasco – That did not show any egress.

Moe Davenport – We have provided our comments to this plan.

Anthony Tabasco – And?

Moe Davenport – Those are our comments. Thank you Anthony.

Bill Burke – I live at 903 Baltimore Pike. I’m the property just south of the auto auction like on the hill. To follow up with this. Are you requiring that there be a walk way through into Ponderosa at this point?

Marcie Meichle – Or, West MacPhail?

Bill Burke – Obviously, when we had this first meeting they were saying that we agree if you don’t want it. Are you saying they have to do it?

Moe Davenport – We are requiring them to provide an easement for pedestrian access to the public streets, the public roads.

Bill Burke – So, in other words it will happen?

Moe Davenport – We will hear your comments today but, those are our comments for them to provide that.

Anthony Tabasco – We are concerned about the safety issues that you are now presenting to our neighborhood that we did not have before. Now, you are opening access that we did not have before. You know, you are supposed to be on our side. It does not appear to me to be public safety. All of a sudden you are giving us egress that we don’t want. I’m trying to understand what the rationale is to open that area. If it has not been open for 30-40 years all of sudden you want to create egress there. I’m just confused by that.

Moe Davenport – It’s a public.

Anthony Tabasco – You are supposed to be working for our benefit. We are the taxpayers.

You work for us. Why are you doing something the taxpayers don’t want?

Bill Burke – If it was a brand new neighborhood that if the people had only been there for a year or two it probably wouldn’t be a big deal. But, in an established neighborhood. Their kids have grown, they are probably in college or out of the neighborhood. I’ve been there for 40 years.

Marcie Meichle – Kids are riding bikes in our neighborhood.

Anthony Tabasco – I’m confused. I’m confused by all of a sudden you want to give us some benefit. No benefit to the neighborhood. We don’t want the egress opened. It was not presented that way and now all of a sudden the county is stepping in and saying we suggest you do this. We don’t want it. If we have to take legal issues to stop it we will.

Moe Davenport – Thank you Anthony.

Mark Riesner – I live in Ponderosa Estates. Just to add to his comments. It’s not a walking trail. It’s a 25’ drop. It’s walking steps into our neighborhood and we don’t want that. We have lived there for 35 years and we don’t want any access. The kids play in the streets. It’s a one access community and the kids ride bikes throughout the neighborhood. Talk about public safety and we never wanted that opened up. We fought before with the planning commission about opening up MacPhail Road and extending it over to Route 1 and we want that off the plan too, which this development seems to take that off the plan.

Moe Davenport – We are not suggesting that there be vehicular access. Crowd – We don’t want any access.

Anthony Tabasco – There is a 30% decline there. You got people that are going to be sliding down in the winter time. Accidents are going to happen and so forth. This is like crazy.

Citizen – There is also a wetlands area there.

Moe Davenport – I hear you. We will take a look at the topography and look at those options.

Anthony Tabasco – Well, you need to physically go out there and look at them.

Moe Davenport – I said, I would.

Anthony Tabasco – Ok, I did not know if you were talking about a movable kind of fly by or whatever or physical site?

Moe Davenport – I promise you I will.

Anthony Tabasco – Ok, thank you. I appreciate that. Moe Davenport – No problem.

Ann Carlton – You just said there were no changes but, you just said that the county would like to put some sort of round-a-bout at the end of the road. Did I understand that correctly?

Moe Davenport – Mike?

Mike Rist – We were asking for a permanent turn around at the end of the road there. Typically, we would put in a cul-de-sac. In this case there is not room to do it. But, we would like that enlarged a little bit so that you can turn trucks around and so forth right there.

Ann Carlton – Well that makes sense because, we want our roads plowed but where are you going to get the land if you did not have the land before? Are you taking it from the houses?

Mike Rist – No, it would be built within the county right of way. There is a 50 or 60 foot right of way there that the county owns so it would be within that right of way or if possible on the developers property itself.

Ann Carlton – I see so, you are adding those two things that were not on that plan at the CIM.

Crowd Noise

Mike Rist – There is not a round-a-bout but, some type of a permanent turn around there because, when that was built it was just built as a temporary turn-around. It is very small.

Anthony Tabasco – So, you just want to make it so it’s no egress to the other development just a circle is that correct?

Mike Rist – Not a circle. It will probably be more of a square than a circle. Anthony Tabasco – But, no egress to the other neighborhood than. Correct?

Moe Davenport – It is a permanent T-Turn-around most likely so that the plows can turn around there adequately.

Ann Carlton – Because, right now it is not that way.

Moe Davenport – It was built as a temporary turn-around and was built as a stub road to be extended into this property. We are asking that it be built as a permanent turn-around.

Ann Carlton – I guess my point is. Is you are kind of accepting that that is necessary and that kind of says it is supposed to be dead end and it was all along. The idea of allowing people to come into the neighborhood from another one that causes concern and that is what we are addressing. The other thing is that I’ve been told basically that you are going to make sure that the water will be as pure tomorrow, after their work, as it is today. Is that true?

Moe Davenport – We hope that the water is cleaner.

Ann Carlton – Yes, I would love that because you can only last three days without water. You can do 40 days without food but water can kill you if it is contaminated. There are two things I’m concerned about: your building, you are concerned about the dust, so are we. We are concerned about the animals that will be displaced as you do construction. A deer with antlers ended up in my yard the other day and I suspect there will be others that will show up as the construction occurs. I didn’t hear anything about the concern for some of the rare animals that might be there and one of them is that turtle that we have here in MD. I didn’t see a report and I didn’t hear of a report and I guess I’m a little concerned about that. When I moved in and I qualify for the 40 year discount next year on my taxes. They indicated that that watershed would be protected and I wouldn’t need to worry otherwise I wouldn’t have come into that community. It’s a lovely community, just by the way. That is why we are fighting so hard and I am really nervous so I’m not presenting as logical. The other thing is that traffic issue is not a minor thing. We did say something about the suicide hill of Route 1 and the beauty is that Route 1 has been there a long time. It may actually be the first highway but, when that came in and we had the auto auction we had the police. They managed the traffic so, there is a great concern that that number of people may create a hazard for the police. I guess I’m surprised I don’t hear anything about the traffic or the police, the concern and on that issue they are going to older folk who are going to be over 50. How are you going to get an ambulance to them? You know how we are a little older, me, a fire, God forbid. I’m just concerned. I’m old. I’m worried about my safety and well- being, my neighborhood, my neighbors, my town. This is my home. It’s your business but, it is my home. And, I don’t want to be chased out of my home. I don’t want my little part of my county. I know that I have to share. I know that new people are going to come in and I know you have the right to invest and improve to get that. Will you please consider our needs, our wishes, our only home, our water so that we don’t get cancer from a gas station. Can you ensure that that gas pump that you put in won’t leak when there are already others there? I don’t understand. Can you provide us with information about the forest programs, the forestry was supposed to do something and check out the animals and all. Can I get a copy?

Moe Davenport – Yes, you can get copies. You have been to our office and you know how to get copies?

Ann Carlton – Yes, you are delightful.

Moe Davenport – That is where you go to get any information.

Ann Carlton – Most of us are doing this for the first and only time in our lives and we don’t have the practice. We are not as organized as you all. We don’t know what to watch for and we are just trying to do all we can as citizens to try to protect what we have invested in and it is the only investment of this kind I have ever had. Help me; that is what I’m asking. Help us.

Dorothy Burke – I just want to comment that when the auto auction came, all of the residents border this property. My son is right next door to it on Route 1. I felt we were stepped over when it came and it was a huge thing to put in front of our homes. The streets you talked about traffic. Traffic, if you all watched the little snow fall that we just had. My son took pictures of all of the cars that were backed up on Belair Road and Lake Fanny Hill. I don’t want us to get stepped on again. We accepted the auto auction. It worked out but not the way we wanted but still it was there. I just hope this comes our smoothly and the people surrounding this property are listened to and perhaps their input gets appreciated.

Moe Davenport – Thank you Dorothy it will.

Bill Burke – That hill, Lake Fanny Hill. We are all familiar with it. I live right on the hill just below the auto auction, that little side road right there so, if there is a half inch of snow cars come down that hill 3 mph, sliding. The cars going up are spinning and I’m telling you it is a bumper car thing. A little bit of sleet, a little bit of snow, even rain it happens. I video tape it all the time and I’ve had a couple of hours of video tape where it was going and plow could not even get in there. It was like bumper cars city of there. So, what is going to happen with all of these new 50-60 year old folks moving in and all of this new traffic on that hill. I you came down and watch it during a snow storm it is really something to see. That curve at the top of the hill; I’ve talked to an attorney, a zoning attorney from Baltimore County that has given me some advice. That curve at the top of the hill is a huge problem because when cars come around that corner you can’t see cars pulling out of Bel Air Acres, you can’t see anyone pulling out of my driveway and as soon as that happens people brake and slide. We are just good at driving on that hill and that is why you don’t have an accident there every week.

Peggy Early – I’m wondering what is the justification and thought process for wanting to put more gas pumps in such close proximity to all of the one’s at WaWa.

Paul Muddiman – I would suspect there is a demand for it.

Anthony Tabasco – Doesn’t that create a dangerous situation. You have 20-50 thousand gallons of gas at the WaWa and now you are going to put another tank probably 100 yards away with another 20-50 thousand gallons of fuel in the ground. You have one potential explosion, now you have a 2nd. You will devastate that whole neighborhood with 100,000 gallons of fuel that are within 1⁄4 mile of each other. God forbid of any kind of an accident they will both explode. I mean is there any consideration with the county about thinking about the processes being planned here without any foresight. Remember the Exxon station down in Jarrettsville-4 Corners. All of the properties that were devastated because of fuel leaks and so forth. Here we are 100 yards away from two tanks of fuel; two gas stations. What is the necessity for another gas station 100 yards away? I don’t understand the rational for that other than it makes the developer richer because now afford to price the property a certain way. What about the citizens? We are the ones that have been paying taxes here 30-40-50 years. What about us? Forget about these newcomers. What about us? Just make sure you consider those kind of things before you start putting stuff in front of our houses. Not in front of your house but in front of our houses. Another fuel tank going into the ground. They leak and have issues about explosions and so forth. Remember what happened in Jarrettsville with the Exxon station leaking and how many homes had to be destroyed or homes they could not use anymore because the aquafer being contaminated. That is the potential here for another one.

Marcie Meichle – It’s not just the explosions. I think he absolutely right about that. I think that proximity to the drinking water on that hill with the known aquafer is also a significant concern not just for our community but for all of Bel Air drinking water in general.

Moe Davenport – They will have to meet all of the State guidelines.

Marcie Meichle – I know this county does not have a lot of great mechinisms for development.

Moe Davenport – After the Jarrettsville issue we did change our regulation to restrict fuel, filling stations to reduce that potential so, they will have to comply with those regulations.

Anthony Tabasco – Is there going to be monitoring in the ground to make sure there is no leaks?

Len Walinski – We don’t regulate gas stations that’s the Maryland Department of the Environment.

Crowd Noise

Moe Davenport – Do you know if Maryland Department of the Environment monitors gas stations?

Len Walinski – They do monitor gas station. They have monitoring wells, yes. Anthony Tabasco – I’m sorry what was your response?

Moe Davenport – The MDE has monitoring wells at the gas stations.

Ann Carlton – On that second plan item #2 says that there is a single phase for development however, you still indicate that lot 3 you do not have plans for it or what the usage might be. So, if you are going to do the whole thing at once why isn’t that on there?

Paul Muddiman – Lot 3 would have to come back to DAC as a separate plan. We are not proposing anything on it right now. When and if we do it will come back to this group for another review.

Ann Carlton – So, even though you included it you are not including it. That’s confusing. Paul Muddiman – That’s because it is part of the overall area of the property. So, we have to show it. We have indicated that it is future.

Ann Carlton – Well, it says it is a single phase for development.

Paul Muddiman – What we are proposing is a single phase. We are not proposing anything on that lot today.

Moe Davenport – Paul, would you say that that is phase 2.

Paul Muddiman – It is a future phase let’s call it that.

Crowd Noise

Paul Muddiman – We are not showing anything. If we were showing some proposed development on that then we would tell you we are going to do something with that today. But, we don’t know what we are doing with it today or if we are ever going to do something with it.

Ann Carlton – Then that statement is incorrect. You also have item #17 limits of the Critical Area. What is the Critical Area?

Moe Davenport – The Critical Area is the Chesapeake Bay Critical Area and it is 1000 feet from tidal waters. So, they clarified it that it is not within 1000 feet of the tidal waters.

Ann Carlton – I noticed that there was water that was marked US so it’s part of the United States water. So, that water streams that we are talking about is not just a county water it is a United States water. So, that water shed has to really be protected. We are drinking it.

Moe Davenport – We plan to make sure that they provide the protections required in the code. There will be a Forest Stand Delineation, Forest Conservation Plan and they will have to provide adequate buffers to the wetlands.

Ann Carlton – And, we will be kept up to date with how that is going?

Moe Davenport – I’m sure you will be.

Ann Carlton – I will show up. I’m just scared. That is what you are hearing here. The extreme tight roads. I don’t understand if somebody comes to visit those folks and they probably will have to because they are over 50. How are you going to get a fire truck or an ambulance in there if people really do park on the street when they come to visit?

Robin Wales – Well they will have their own regulations with their private roadways system. They may need to adjust their parking.

Ann Carlton – You won’t have that time if someone is dying or the house is burning.

Moe Davenport – We will look into the turning radius in there to make sure that they meet the code.

Paul Muddiman – We are also providing a good bit of perpendicular parking off street parking so people don’t have to park along the curb.

Ann Carlton – But, you can’t make them.

Paul Muddiman – If it would become a problem we can sign it to eliminate or prohibit parking.

Ann Carlton – That’s an interesting way to address.

Dorothy Burke – I hate to hang my head on this again but that proposed/not proposed yet that senior building apartment building. It is four floors, so how many apartments and how many people living there and how in the future is it going to impact on the water that you already have coming into those houses and sewer that these houses produce? How is that going to affect what you are currently accepting for the development now? I mean is that going to change your sewage and water supply that the town and American Water supplies?

Moe Davenport – Dorothy, that is part of our technical review with Daryl Ivins here with Water & Sewer and we have asked for that break down of how they are going to be served by water and sewer. And, which sections are going to be served by Maryland American and the county. They will also have to provide fire flow analysis and demonstrate that they have met what is adequate public facilities regulations that they meet the standards in the code for safety.

Marcie Meichle – Can somebody explain why? Maybe I missed it while I was out I had a patient on the operating table. Can someone explain why we are splitting water access between the county and American water.

Moe Davenport – Yes.

Daryl Ivins – In the Water & Sewer Master Plan the service area is actually delineated in the Water & Sewer Master Plan. Who Maryland American serves and who Harford County serves is in the plan. As you may know the auto auction was about 5 or 6 different parcels of ground and the properties that were developed as buildings that were served by Maryland American however, the parking lots were always in the Harford County service area.

Marcie Meichle – So, no matter what goes in there it is going to be split between two water companies?

Daryl Ivins – That is what we are trying to determine now. How that would be split? It has not been determined yet.

Marcie Meichle – So, will the developer need to adhere to satisfying both requirements then.

Daryl Ivins – Correct.

Marcie Meichle – And, are the rules and regulations for each of those different?

Daryl Ivins – The rules and regulations for Harford County are more strict than Maryland American for fire flow.

Marcie Meichle – Good. Then my other question is a gentleman back here mentioned that the overgrowth and tree line separating the existing developments with the new proposed development is sort of overgrown which I think is great for wildlife. And, then we discussed a buffer zone so, has there been any sort of meeting of the minds as to what this buffer zone will look like between the existing development and what is proposed here?

Moe Davenport – The buffer yard has a specific criteria as far as per linear feet the number of large trees, small trees and shrubs. And, they get credit for what is existing and they will have to supplement.

Marcie Meichle – I see too often in Harford County that development comes in these days and takes everything out and then just plants little trees. There are a lot of beautiful existing large trees in the area and I don’t want those pulled out at all. They are great for the development.

Moe Davenport – They will evaluate the health of those trees and we will go on from there.

Max Carozza – I believe I have spoken to you on the phone a few times. I live on the corner of Lake Fanny and Belair Road which is approximately a block and a half south of the proposed property. My issue with this new development has to do with the traffic. Belair Road there is a single lane traffic going north and south. I live there for 27 or 28 years. There is too much traffic on that road and it can’t handle it. The situation of putting this proposed development in could bring thousands of cars a day in and out of this property up here. Now that hill, and I brought this up at the meeting, people in the area and who have grown up in the Bel Air area know that that was always called suicide hill because of the accidents of people pulling into Bel Air Acres and my side of the street; Lake Fanny Road, Locust Lane up there where Billy lives. When it get icy that road is treacherous. People like Bill said have to go down that hill at 2 or 3 mph, touch your brakes and you go sliding in. I have seen accidents over and over and over when the roads are dry coming down in there. Last Thursday, when we had that ice storm in there. Total lock up in that area. People sliding off the road everywhere. When the auto auction when it was in there had the traffic all backed up. That was only one day a week in there for a couple of hours. They had a couple hundred cars going in and out of there. Now, they are proposing something that is going to be seven days a week and could potentially thousands of cars going in and out of that road that can’t handle the traffic that it currently has. They have had State Police and the Bel Air Police department had to come in there for a couple hours those days to control the traffic. It backs up down the hill and up the hill whatever and potentially thousands of cars going in and out one entrance. Two entrances both going out on the same road. If there was another entrance proposed somewhere off of Belair Road I wouldn’t be as much against this as I am but, that is the only place that all the cars and potentially could be thousands of cars a day going in and out of there all off of Belair Road which has too much traffic as it is. I’ve seen accidents coming out of the WaWa with people turning out of there I have seen and heard accidents many times in the middle of the night. Cars come down that hill and lock it up. If they are coming south on the hill and go over where Fran lives in Bel Air Acres and someone pulls out cars lock their brakes up and I hear smash in the middle of the night. This whole situation I just think; years ago they tried to develop the property down behind me that Brady owned and I contacted State Highway Administration and they told they would not put any lights in here because of the potential harm that it could cause and there is nowhere on that road where the road could be expanded or widened. It’s a one way lane road up and down and that road has too much traffic as it is and once this is done the people that live in and out of that road; I have to sit at times for 20 minutes in the morning if I have to turn south to go down and then you have to take the chance of jumping out in that middle lane; it is treacherous; most people won’t do it; women won’t do it and now you are contemplating putting this development that could potentially have thousands of cars going in and out with these apartment complexes, senior center, restaurants or whatever it is. There is way too much traffic now. I think you guys need to consider what this is going to do to the people that live there that have been there for 25, 30 and 35 years like we have.

Moe Davenport – Thank you, Max.

Carole Wagner – I live in Bel Air Acres. We all know that that property we are discussing has been commercial for a long time. Actually, when I was a little girl there were houses there and I knew people that lived there and I played in that stream. We all know progress has to pass along but it seems to me that when Mr. Close and his committee reviewed this property they mentioned all of the different things that could go there. The plan incorporates every possible thing that can go there. I think we are realistic people. We know that it a commercial property and it has to be used for commercial uses. But, we have to limit those things we don’t want all of those different types of businesses: gas stations, housing, you know all of the things that are involved. It seems to me that there needs to be a plan that would help out commercial development that would be financially good for the person purchasing the property and who would also protect the neighborhood and the folks in Ponderosa and on Belair Road and Bel Air Acres who have lived there for a very long time. I’ve owned my property since 1973. I moved away for a while but I kept the property because I love Bel Air Acres and knew I was coming back and I did. So, please consider the residents of the area. It’s our home and we don’t want it to become any more dangerous than it is now. Thanks for listening.

Ann Carlton – Just one more. To the police that have to go to all of those houses. You have no comment? You have no concerns?

Senior Deputy Baressi – We are here to make sure that the meeting goes as follows. We are not here to have any input on that because we are not part of the advisory board as far as studies.

Ann Carlton – That’s a shame.

Senior Deputy Baressi - We can have communication as far as when you would have something you have an issue with but, other than that unfortunately, I don’t have anything to add to this as far as changes. I’m sorry.

Ann Carlton – You are going to have to beef up your staff just to handle accidents. I’m not sure if the county has the funds for that. Just saying.

Moe Davenport – Let me clarify one thing. They haven’t submitted their Traffic Impact Study Analysis which they are working on now and it will be submitted to us. That will be available online as well.

Marcie Meichle – Let me just clarify for anyone that does not know. They are the one’s paying for that Traffic Analysis so of course it is not independent. So, we need to keep that in mind as we move forward however, what I think is important for the County Council up there and all of you; WaWa is in one location where the gasoline is and I think what this lady said about keeping in mind the residents in this area. I think for a lot of us though given that our drinking water is right there I hope that everybody up there on that board considers adding a sixth gas station in a one mile radius that’s even closer to all of our drinking water as a primary concern for this development. I personally don’t have concerns about the development of the houses, of the retail as much although I don’t like empty retail stores in the area. I think that the developer has been smart about he proposes but I do think that the risk analysis on adding yet another gas station close to an aquafer which is everybody in this area’s drinking water should be of utmost concern.

Mike Guerney – Locust Lane. In regards to the gas station, thinking back to the community input meeting and the question was asked here a few moments ago about why the need and the response here was demand. When the investor was asked the same question at the community input meeting he never mentioned demand. He simply stepped in and said without a gas station this project is not financially feasible for me. Which tells me he is just looking at the perpetual lease value of that piece of property to him from Royal Farms or whoever and never mentioned demand being an issue. And, I go to WaWa and have never had to stand in a line to get gas at WaWa so, I don’t see this as a demand issue. I see it merely as a profitability issue for the investor.

Khrystyna Bednarek – I live on MacPhail Road North which is perpendicular to West MacPhail. I have an 8 year old and Marcie has two kids and we have a lot of small kids in our neighborhood and I’m opposing any access; walking path, automobile access to West MacPhail Road. Please keep that closed. The neighborhood is safe. We love it. I’ve been there 11 years and I just don’t want my property value to decrease because more traffic is going to be coming whether it is automobile or a cut through.

Fran Wergin – I’ve lived in Bel Air Acres for 48 years and I know the auto auction something is going to go in but the traffic is horrible. Sometimes, we cannot make a left turn you have to go down to the by-pass and come around if you want to go into Bel Air. I know all of the back roads in Harford County so, I’m ok but, the traffic is a problem. Like 2 o’clock in the afternoon it starts already from Old Joppa Road it is backing up and Friday forget it. It is horrible.

Max Carozza – It is and then all of a sudden you are going to have vehicles coming in there Friday and Saturday traffic backs up in town down the hill where my house is and it is totally stopped and then all of a sudden you want to put hundreds to thousands of cars coming out of one area right there. It is going to be total grid lock.

Mike Burke – The biggest problem is the hill. If this was an area where there was flat ground it wouldn’t be dangerous but the hill just complicates the whole thing by adding traffic to it.

Fran Wergin – And, you know sometimes when you get in the middle of it and put your blinker on sometimes people are nice they wave you in or you might sit there for 5 minutes.

Max Carozza – Or 20 minutes if you are going the opposite way. It is ridiculous.

Fran Wergin – There is another community with 50 some houses all on well water and remember what happened up there in Jacksonville and also in Fallston the water tables were contaminated. It is our drinking water. Winters Run is right there. The reservoir. So, think about it.

Max Carozza - The gas station is not needed the only time WaWa ever got backed up was on days when the auto auction was open. All of those cars came out of the auction and went in there because you have vehicles with no gas and they had to get to PA or wherever. That was the only time that WaWa ever gets backed up traffic. One day a week.

Fran Wergin – It is the safety. Work with us. We love Harford County and it a home away from home.

Max Carozza - Once this is done all of us that live there we are stuck. It may now take us 1⁄2 hour to get out of there and you will say well it’s already done. Well we have live there and we are going to have to live there. The traffic is my main issue with the whole thing because of treacherous road, single lane each way and too much traffic as it is especially on the weekends you have people trying to get up into town you have traffic from Tollgate Road all the way to Lake Fanny Road where I live or further. Then all of a sudden you going to add hundreds to thousands of people trying to come out to get in there on both lanes. It is going to be total grid lock and we don’t want to have to wait until you guys approve this and get it done and all of a sudden we can’t get out of our houses because it is already done so what are we going to do Mr. Carozza.

Dorothy Burke – I was just going to say I don’t want to be evil but it would be nice to do the Traffic Study during December when all of the Christmas traffic is heading into town.

Crowd Laughter

Max Carozza - 7-9 in the morning and 4:30 to 6:30 at night. That’s when they need to be looking at the traffic study because, that is when it is bad. Saturday is ridiculous trying to get back up into town. It is backed up constantly.

Anthony Tabasco – What is the next step here? What is the next process after this meeting? In other words are you going to evaluate what people say? What exactly is going to take place?

Moe Davenport – Well, if the submit revised plans they will be available online. You can contact me or Jen Wilson, she is the project planner and anytime you have any questions or comments on it you can contact us. Assuming we issue a Concept Plan approval then they will submit a Preliminary Site Plan with details as provided. If you are an adjacent property owner you will be notified again. We will put the signs on the property. We will advertise in the newspaper and we will be here again. At any time our offices are open from 8-5 if you want to stop by with any questions.

Max Carozza – How can you revises anything with alterations to Belair Road which is the main thing that needs to be done? Years ago, State Highway told me there is no way they could widen that road. So, that road is going to have to stay single lane going north and going south.

Moe Davenport – Belair Road is a State Highway and the county and the State Highway they constantly evaluate the roads and we will have to look at those roads if it becomes too much of an issue. They constantly maintain and monitor the roads. Are there plans for Belair Road? I know we have plans for further down the road.

Rich Zeller – I’m not sure if there are plans for that exact area for widening the road but after we have the opportunity to review the traffic analysis there may well be requirements for road improvements along the frontage that provide turn lanes in and out of the site.

Max Carozza – But, they would have to take people’s personal property to do that.

Rich Zeller – Well they would take from their own property to widen the road. They would have to widen the road along their frontage in order to provide turn lanes if it is determined that it is needed.

Marcie Meichle – And how much further out from that particular property would have to be widened to accommodate because that particular section is very small and if you don’t widen all the way up to the intersection at Tollgate, no benefit. Or, little benefit to none.

Rich Zeller – I rather doubt that they would be able to widen all the way up to Tollgate.

Marcie Meichle – Exactly, so a little tiny bit is not going to make any changes.

Rich Zeller – I’m speaking specifically of the site. The development of this site. And, when we review the traffic study they are required to analyze intersections and make sure there is no adverse impact to them. As you said there is already a lot of traffic here.

Marcie Meichle – How many intersections are they responsible for looking at right now.

Rich Zeller – I think the county will know better than I for that. No matter what there is a certain radius that they go out a certain distance from the property to evaluate those intersections.

Moe Davenport – Marcie, we have identified those you can contact Alex Rawls or myself and we will identify those intersections that were required.

Paul Muddiman – There were over a dozen intersections.

Marcie Meichle – Good.

Max Carozza – Widening the property up there is not going to do any good for the traffic that is coming from Belair and Harford Road where they meet going up to Tollgate Road. You are still single lane and you have houses on both sides. They would have to buy all of the houses to widen that road. And, the county told me years ago they proposed a span bridge or something. I have talked to State Highway when they were trying to develop and grade behind me and they said they could not do it because of the ABC and D. So, there is no way they can widen Belair Road south from where Billy lives and down to me and towards

Belair Road proper where it meets Harford Road. You are still going to have single lane of traffic both ways. Total lock up and congestion.

Ann Carlton – In answering your question you only have to have one more of these torturous meetings. Is that correct?

Moe Davenport – Well, unless they develop those commercial lots independently. Like Lot 3 which says future. That would come back at a later time. But, other than that there would be no other public meeting.

Ann Carlton – So, that would be it? So, all of our comments and all of our concerns we have one more meeting which I hope is not before a holiday and not 9 am in the morning please. But, one more meeting and that’s it.

Moe Davenport – Yes, Mam.

Ann Carlton – And, if it is legal this is going to be it. Did I get that right?

Moe Davenport – Yes

Ann Carlton – Wow, but there are so many concerns.

Moe Davenport – And, we are here to try and address all of the concerns that we can.

Marcie Meichle – So, when is the traffic study due? I want to make sure if the community decides to do an independent environmental impact statement on that water. What are the deadlines for that?

Moe Davenport – They will have to submit their traffic study with the submission of the Preliminary Plan.

Marcie Meichle – And, what is that deadline?

Moe Davenport – That is up to them.

Marcie Meichle – And, how would we know about that?

Moe Davenport – We advertise and post as soon as we receive those plans. But, we will have to approve this plan first.

Marcie Meichle – So, what is the intervening time that I’m looking for so that if we choose to do an independent water statement. At what time would we have to do that? Now,

basically? Harford County is very different than Portland, Oregon I’ll tell you that with their development concepts. So, I’m trying to figure it out. It’s a little bit secret here and a little covert. So, I’m hoping to figure out what the time frame is for that?

Moe Davenport – It usually takes about 6-8 weeks for us to approve this plan and then they can submit within 5 years. Those plans will be valid for 5 years. They could submit right away if they are ready to move forward. Many time it depends on the market, the economy and other things. It is outside of our control.

Anthony Tabasco – When are we going to know whether you will allow an egress onto Barke Ford Road or not? Since you now have our input. When will we know if you are going to do it or not? When will we know that point? When is the drop dead date for that process?

Moe Davenport – You can contact me at any time.

Anthony Tabasco – I’m contacting you now. I’m asking you now.

Moe Davenport – Well, I represent the Director of Planning and Zoning and I have to go to him and share this meeting with him and your concerns. But, we also represent all of Harford County, all of the citizens in Ponderosa, Wakely Meadows, Bel Air Acres and everywhere in Bel Air.

Anthony Tabasco – We are the ones directly impacted. Bel Air Acres has their own issues. My issue is I don’t want egress. I want to know when we are going to have a date where you are going to say well we appreciate your input but we are still going to put it there.

Marcie Meichle – Yeah, take that to your boss.

Anthony Tabasco – At that point I will commence a law suit to stop this process because I will not allow egress into my street. I have lived there for 35 years and we are not going to have egress in that area.

Moe Davenport – So, you are not going to allow people to use a public road.

Anthony Tabasco – It is not a public road today.

Moe Davenport – It is a public road.

Anthony Tabasco – There is already a fence there that blocks it and now all of a sudden you are going to open it up.

Moe Davenport – It is a public road. The county owns 50 feet of right-of-way.

Anthony Tabasco – So, why haven’t they maintained that area since they own it?

Crowd Laughter

Anthony Tabasco – So, I’m just curious, you own it. My neighbor has been trying to get someone to take care of it and the county says it is not their property. Now, all of sudden you say it is your property. I don’t understand that.

Moe Davenport – You can talk to Public Works regarding that issue.

Anthony Tabasco – Talk to the hand is that what we are supposed to do. Talk to the hand.

Moe Davenport – What I have said to you is that I will personally go out there and take a look at the situation because you have identified issues regarding topography and other issues and until I have the opportunity to evaluate those I can’t give you an answer and I won’t give you an answer today.

Marcie Meichle – So, I think what you hear from the meeting if you watch the video from the first community input meeting and from the citizens here today that made it here at 9 am the day before Thanksgiving that neither community wants any access. I think that is one of the big messages to take back to your boss. Is that we want those communities to be independent and it’s great that they are having good smart development on the other side but keep it as such so that those roads are not open even for a walking path.

Moe Davenport – Regardless, of whether there is a walking path or not. It is a public road. Anthony Tabasco – Ok, that’s fine.

Moe Davenport - And, it is a public right-of-way. You or I cannot deny any citizens from using a public road.

Anthony Tabasco - There is a fence up today.

Crowd Noise

Moe Davenport – We have heard your concerns and I will do what I said I will do. Anthony Tabasco – We will be notified when you will be physically be out there. Moe Davenport – No sir.

Marcie Meichle – We would be happy to give you a tour.

Moe Davenport – I bet you will.

Ann Carlton – Can we please continue to communicate openly and friendly?

Moe Davenport – Yes. We are open every week day and work 8-5. I have spoken too many of you on the phone and I have met with you.

Ann Carlton – I would like that to continue please.

Moe Davenport – Absolutely. If there are no other questions or comments I would like to thank everyone for their attendance right before this holiday weekend. I know it was a struggle to get here. I hope everyone has a nice, safe and happy Thanksgiving.

Meeting adjourned at 10:35 am.

https://www.harfordcountymd.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Minutes/_11212018-1029

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